Joshua Williams: Retail Revolution, a unique podcast that features in depth conversations with guest experts in omnichannel retailing, with myriad perspectives: technology, consumer engagement, data analytics, merchandising, and more. We pay special attention to current socio-political issues and challenges and their implications on fashion retail as well as opportunities to innovate and rethink retail's future. 

Visit at RetailRevolutionPodcast.com for more information, including full transcripts. And follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn at RetailRevolutionPodcast. 

Retail Revolution is produced by Joshua Williams and hosted by Christopher Lacy. Both are Assistant Professors in the Fashion Management graduate program at Parsons School of Design.

Christopher Lacy: Retail Revolution was developed for "Retailing and Service Design," a course that is part of the MPS Fashion Management program at Parsons School of Design. It has become something bigger than that though. We've now released 26 full episodes and 11 bonus episodes, reaching 50 plus countries around the world.

It has allowed us an opportunity to engage in conversations around fashion retail during a time of change and uncertainty. Today, I have with me our producer, co-creator amazing editor extraordinaire, Joshua Williams. 

Joshua Williams: Hey, how are you? 

Christopher Lacy: Good Josh. So, for all of you who are joining in and listening to us for the first time, this is a very special episode. We are kicking off season three and really kind of going back over what's happened in season one and season two. For those of you who do not know, Joshua Williams is also an Associate Professor in the MPS Fashion Management program, alongside myself. 

So Josh... 

Joshua Williams: Yes.

Christopher Lacy: Overall personal thoughts about Retail Revolution and how it's expanded and continued?

Joshua Williams: Well, it's interesting because we had always talked about having a podcast as part of the program, just as a way to engage students in conversation. But obviously when COVID-19 hit, we were just sort of in the process of preparing for our first episode and everything changed. So, I believe I remember having a conversation with you about, do you think we can do this remotely and make a go of it as a way to bring in experts into the classroom at the very last minute?  Because we were going into this retailing course and had all of these guests prepared to come and speak to the students one-on-one. And all of a sudden that had all changed. And I have to say not, not only were we able to pull it off, I think we ended up recording 10 episodes in about a week or two weeks.

But the information that we gathered was just really amazing and really insightful. And it just so happened that everyone right in that moment, sort of mid to late March, were really going through the throes of COVID. Meaning, we were just sort of realizing how big this was going to be and the impact it was going to have on business.

And so, if anything, those first 10, 13 episodes are really raw and really intimate and really, I think full of insight about the day-to-day issues of fashion retail. From the perspective of a student, I think it was so valuable to hear how they were problem solving in real time. So, I can't believe, you know, here we are, we just finished season two, like you said, we've done 26 full episodes and a handful of bonus episodes. So, it's kind of amazing that we've come this far, but  I look back on it now and I realize that there not only is the need for this kind of conversation because of the pandemic, but really a need for this kind of conversation that overlaps all the different operations of retail.

I think so often fashion retail, we tend to compartmentalize conversation, and this podcast really looks at all the different layers of it, whether it's photography, and how you market with Nigel Barker. Or, Natalie Zfat talking about social media or M e isha talking about department stores and how things have shifted in terms of the buyer and merchandising relationships. Just a couple of standouts there that come to mind.  

What did you think? I mean, I know I sort of roped you in at the last minute, because we were co-teaching this class and, sorta threw on you the hat of the host. And, personally I think you've done a great job. And I'm curious what your thoughts are.

Christopher Lacy: Yeah. I think, for me, it's always kind of been this, it's been a fun ride because this kind of showed what you have to do and how you have to think on the spot to make amazing things happen. And how out of crisis, there becomes this opportunity. I think what's made this so enjoyable is that it was always about the students and what we wanted the students to learn.

I think what has been even more amazing for it are all the things I learned. Whenever we're vetting a guest and figuring out who we want on and how we want the arc of a particular season to go, and what is it we want to talk about? And then really drafting those questions. And the conversation around what we want to get out of someone and what we want our students to get out of it.

And I think that's, what's been the most exciting part for me. I think, to your point, it's been great to also give people who might not know what fashion really looks like. I mean, we created this for "Retailing and Service Design," and since we've branched out and we've talked about social media, we've talked about socio-economic concerns. We, of course, have talked about sustainability and ethics. We've talked about all those things. I think what we've been able to do though is pull back the curtain of fashion and, and show people that it isn't just about runway shows.

Joshua Williams: Yeah, right.

Christopher Lacy:  Or doing PR. It really is a huge industry with millions and millions and millions of people working, keeping it going. So, it's kind of wild!

Joshua Williams: Well, I've always, yeah, I've always loved what Ron Thurston, who is our first guest says about retail. That it's really a conglomeration of people with lots of expertise and experience and lots of people who are coming into an industry without any expertise. And that the retail industry really is built on a whole array of people. And it relies on all of those people and, you know, I think that's kind of come through, because not every single person on the podcast has been specifically a retail expert, but maybe tangentially or, sort of as an ancillary. But really having those conversations and understanding at the end of the day, we're all trying to sell product and make our customers happy and engage with our customers. I found that to be really fascinating. 

Christopher Lacy: You mentioned the Ron Thurston comments. So, I'm going to ask you, if you were to think of a key expert takeaway or an insight over the past two seasons, is that definitely one of them? Or, or do you have more? 

Joshua Williams: Well, the one that comes to mind is Cheryl Stallworth. And it wasn't because it was earth shattering, new information. It was just a reminder that the farther you get up in the echelons of a corporation, the more distanced you are from the customer and the less you know about the needs of your actual customer. And this happens, whether you're in mass consumer product, or if you're in the luxury business. There's a tendency, once you reach a certain level, to only engage with people in that socioeconomic realm. And just her whole entire conversation about getting back down there and engaging and listening and not even just listening, but working alongside, engaging along side employees, customers, so that you really truly understand what they're looking for is so important. And, and this really plays into, I would say the overarching comments throughout both seasons, which is the need for more authenticity and more value alignment between brands and customers. 

Christopher Lacy: That was a big key takeaway.

It's definitely one of my favorites, because Cheryl I've always looked to her as, as a mentor. And I don't have many people that I would say that I look to as a mentor. But I think that conversation for me, I could have probably talked to her forever. 

 My other experience that always stands out to me, happened with Jordanna. And I think the reason that conversation sits with me so much is because she is not the textbook version of the people we really have talked to before. Right?  I love her background. I love that she is an immigrant. I loved that she didn't go to school for any of this. She didn't go to school at all and she leaned into who she is as a person and went out to get what she wanted and ended up getting this job and studied on her own and did all these things. And I think that it shows what you can do when there is a level of resilience, but still being connected to community. And I just, I, I love the conversation we had with her.

Joshua Williams: All of the people so far on the podcast have been people that like to engage with other people. And I think that's a lot of retail people anyway; we like to be with other people. We like to have conversations. But Jordanna is a perfect example, as well as Natalie Zfat comes to mind and Sabrina Lynch, of people who were kind enough to come and share their perspectives on the podcast, but then also amplify their conversations on their own platforms and in their own areas of business. And, I really do appreciate the fact that, you know, people like Jordanna have really supported the podcast and have used it as a way to share their voice and to bring other voices into it.  We had the opportunity to meet a few really great people through some of our guests that we wouldn't have otherwise.

Christopher Lacy: Oh, for sure. I think for me it's because you have a conversation with somebody and their opening up themselves to you for other people to hear and for anyone who's listening, it's not like I never speak to them again. That's what makes this so much fun is that Josh and I end up having conversations with them afterwards or finding out what they're doing.

And so it becomes this really great network of people who are all moving towards the same goal with different points of view. And I think that's the beauty of, of what we created when we did this. And hopefully when the students are listening to it, they understand what we've done is we've created a tribe. And I think we continue to create a tribe of these amazing people who are wanting to add value to society. And that's important. 

Joshua Williams: Yeah. I can't agree with you more that that's such a key point of all of this. 

Christopher Lacy: So, I want to ask you, any reflections on fashion retail? 

Joshua Williams: It seems to be the only thing I can do, as I'm stuck in my apartment, and literally planning courses for the fall and spring that are related to fashion and thinking about what students need to know.

There was a lot of conversation early on that companies were going to become more values oriented and really more a person first, customer first. And that was one theme. The second theme that we heard a lot is that brick and mortar is still important. It might have changed dramatically because of the way that we now engage with brands through technology. In other words, technology has changed how we have a relationship with a brand. How we buy products. How we expect to be served. But at the end of the day, we all want that true experience. I mean, those were two very constant themes.

And now sort of fast forward a couple of months later, there's kind of a new wave of just real concern that even if with the best intentions, a lot of these companies aren't, or do not have the runway, the financial runway, to continue if COVID keeps going and they can't reopen their stores. It's a reminder to me that as artistic and as community driven as fashion can be, it's still a business. And at the core of it, there has to be a really strong understanding of how to cost and price, and how to provide experiences that are meaningful for your customer rather than just adding on services, because everyone else is doing it. So those are kind of the thoughts that I'm having about retail right now is, is that those who do have the financial wherewithal to continue forward are really going to be front and center in anywhere from three to six months, let's hope. And they will be driving sort of the next wave of what retail can be. And my hope is is that not withstanding the financial pressures, they will be able to become, as we talked about earlier in the podcast, more consumer-centric and more thoughtful about the lives that people live. And their lifestyles, not just from a, "hey, I want to get on a jet and go to Ibiza." Right? But really more in line with what does sustainability actually mean. What does it mean in terms of your pocketbook to be able to buy something that's sustainable? What does it mean if politically speaking for a brand to support one political party or another? What does safety mean in terms of people going into a store, into a space, and what do they expect?

All of those things, definitely been thinking about. 

Christopher Lacy: Nice.

Joshua Williams: What about you? 

Christopher Lacy: I think the major thought that continues in my head, and it might just stem from the fact that I worked in stores for so long and then ran stores. I have this still, this anxiety and this fear that the mindset of retailers has not changed enough to be meaningful for those who are actually working for them.

And what I mean by that is, is the drive for results and the drive for sales at any cost without really being mindful of the situations that are at play. I mean, there's some great numbers in the retail sector coming out. I mean, for retail to come out, being up 1%, obviously a lot of it from home sector because people are at home still. People are actually buying luxury. But I don't want there to be this way of thinking of, we need to try to beat last year's numbers or LY. That really can't be the benchmark right now. And I think when retailers are in that mode, the additional stress it's putting on its employees, ultimately leads to a breakdown in customer experience, right. And we really have to get out of this mindset of drive for numbers, drive for numbers. I think when we start looking at different things, the numbers will automatically come. 

Joshua Williams: That's such a good point because in, in many ways, retail associates are working on the ground level. They have the most to gain and the most to lose. And there is a lot of stress on those who are working on the store floor to not only hit their numbers, but nowadays to be safe. Right? And, and how do you interact with a customer potentially who's not maybe wearing a mask or something along those lines? That, that puts a lot of onus on the associate that wasn't there 

before.

Christopher Lacy: Right. And, anyone who's ever worked in the service industry knows working with the public is really hard. And, they make their money off of things like that. So, corporate has to be really cognizant of what that looks like for them. 

Joshua Williams: I have a question for you. Because we have a new cohort of students coming in for the fall. I'm curious what you think the biggest misnomers are of those students coming in about fashion retail. And I think that this is not just about our students, but just in general, perhaps to the bigger audience. What do you think are the number one or two misnomers that people have about retail?

Christopher Lacy: I feel like it stays the same. And you, you probably have the same one.

It, it's always that. And I know, I know that this new group, I think everyone has this idea that brick and mortar is not important. And that's just not true. And, that misnomer, is what kind of hurts the progression of the fashion industry is everyone thinking that it has to be technology. And so what ends up happening is we frontload a lot of things with technology that's not necessary, when we could actually just go back to basics. And people like to be in a store. They do. They like that moment. Now, will the size of stores need to be what they are? No. I think the reason that misnomer happens is because when people hear that there's businesses going bankrupt and all those things, they have to understand that there were a lot of things at play prior to COVID, that should've happened years and years and years ago. But it doesn't mean that the brick and mortar store is going away. 

Joshua Williams: I would have to say the exact same thing, although I'll add one little piece to that, which is, I think  there's this idea that retailers are just completely clueless. That for some reason, they're not aware that Gen Z wants a certain thing or the Millennials want a certain thing. And I think that that's a misnomer. I think the reality is, is that most retailers are very, very aware of these shifts. They spend a lot of time and money thinking about them. And I think that a misnomer for the fashion industry in general, especially when it comes to retail, is just how complex it is and how every single piece of the operation will have a ripple effect in the supply chain. 

So, you might be able to be sustainable to the consumer in that interaction, but that might create something that's unsustainable, further down the supply chain for the manufacturer, for example. Or , that just because you're being more diverse, right, doesn't necessarily then mean that you're being inclusive in terms of how you're listening and incorporating voices. And, but it's not that companies like Macy's and all these other big companies are not aware of these things. It's how do you change them in a very, very complex environment? And I think that that's a misnomer, this idea that if you want to change, then just change. And I think it's a little bit more difficult than that. 

And one of my favorite moments, I just have to say through the podcast, is when our interns, hosted their own podcasts.

And it was just so fascinating to hear some of these ideas around the fact that Gen Z really do want a brick and mortar experience came through. 

Christopher Lacy: Hmhm.

Joshua Williams: Because you and I have been talking about this all year. But to hear it from the mouths of babes, right? To hear it from them. 

Christopher Lacy: I was like, we're right!

Joshua Williams: It was nice to nice to hear that. And I think of great value to retailers. To really understand that sometimes what people say is not what they do. And, you know, I think we always laugh as new students come in, because they say brick and mortar is dead. And yet on their way to class, they stopped at H&M or Zara. Clearly not dead, right?

Christopher Lacy: speaking of favorite moments, I think, you know, my favorite moments were actually with our interns. So, it's all the things that I, you know, no one actually got to hear. But our interns were a part of brainstorming and things that were created, and it was nice to engage with them in this way of what they wanted to hear.

And so it birth what you're talking about, which is their interviews with the "Independent Thinkers" series, you know... 

Joshua Williams: Right.

Christopher Lacy: Those kinds of things. At the end of the day, you know, people say that retail and fashion is behind, but technically it's not. Like there are a lot of things that retail and fashion did that changed how we exist in what we do. So it's, it's not necessarily completely antiquated. Right? 

Joshua Williams: Right.

Christopher Lacy: And I think that's the great part of it. You know, what we get to do is, is explore that with people who've been in the industry for a long time and then people who aren't in the industry yet. 

Joshua Williams: Well, and that's our goal for, for season three, right ? Is to, to really keep going down that path of talking to people, especially at the frontline of retail, which is sometimes hard to get those voices. But we've had a lot of conversations internally and with our interns about what types of voices we want to bring to the forefront, that we think will be helpful, not only to our students, but to just all listeners in general, about the decisions that are being made on a daily basis.

You talked about year-to-year, but you know, retail is run on day-to-day sales, right? Every single, every single part of the day. 

Christopher Lacy: Which is a terrible way to run your business by the way.

Joshua Williams: It really is. And yet we all look at those end of day numbers to see how we did and benchmark for the next day, or for the next year. So,  we have some really exciting people that we have spoken to, and that we'll be recording in the next few weeks, that really are at the front lines of these conversations. And I think also I'm really excited because now we've moved through Covid a bit. I think we have a little bit more clarity about what's going to happen next. I think that a lot of people in the retail industry have had time to consider it. Had time to talk to their employees. Had time to parse through all the information. And I think we're starting to see, decisions like REI was very interesting there they're not even going to go into their new headquarters, but that, that's definitely part of, I'm sure a conversation that started in April. Right? And now we're starting to see the fruits of that. And I'll be curious to see what we learn in season three. 

Christopher Lacy: For sure.

 Josh, thanks for having this conversation today. We hope everyone enjoyed it. Getting kind of a little bit of sneak peek into our thoughts for season three and where we've come in this journey. And thank you all for coming through this journey with us and with our students. 

We are now streaming on Audible /Amazon. Transcripts are now completely updated. So, please check those out. 

You can support Retail Revolution podcast through Patreon. The link is on the website. And also, this season, there are opportunities for advertising. So, reach out on our website and check that out. We want to give you a shout out. 

Thanks everybody!

Thank you, Chris. It was great to have this little quick episode and check-in. I think it's always great to reflect on what we've done good. And maybe not so good. 

Thanks Josh!

Thank you for listening to this episode of Retail Revolution. A very special thank you to everyone who has helped make this podcast possible. 

If you'd like to support the work we're doing, please visit our show page at Retail RevolutionPodcast.com and click on the donate link. 

Our theme music was composed by Spencer Powell.

Be well and stay tuned for our next episode.

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